Recent tv: Fantasy edition+ SVU

[mazephoenix]

Spoilers under the cut.

Magicians is trying my patience. These people are so dumb, and selfish. God, Julia quit whining and go find that magic. Felt bad for Quentin about his dad at least.

Shannara finally killed off Rovergirl's useless dad. Thank you. James Remar and his creepy charisma was wasted here. Two eps to go, can Bennett lose his shirt some more pls?

Shadowhunters was good. Yes, I know. The Malec stuff was golden. Bishonen wizard and cute Shadowhunter guy have sparks. Clary was fairly uselful and the plot is moving.

SVU has Liv dating Tucker, once agent Taylor on Oz. Taylor got hated for doing his job and trying to catch our fave serial killer. Yes, I know. Keller was already doing life, so yeah.
Didn't Tucker try to get Liv and El fired? Water under the bridge?
I hope Barba gets a bf or gf. He's too hot to be single.

Comments

[red-titan.livejournal.com]

You made valid points, but the thing I had a problem with was the method he used to get the information he wanted. Taylor knew what Keller was capable of; he knew there was a high possibility that if push comes to shove, Keller would kill Beecher so he wouldn't be able to talk. I saw that scene as Taylor pretty much throwing Toby under the bus; he was gambling with Beecher's life.

Plus, he wasn't completely innocent either. It was implied that Taylor gave Heekins insider details so he would make a great witness in Keller's trial. I'm all for a Fed doing his job to catch the bad guys, but he has to do it correctly. That's why we have criminal procedures and constitutional protections in place; to prevent that kind of abuse of power by the law enforcement. I certainly would not be comfortable to think that the police or FBI could just circumvent the laws for the sake of obtaining their goal.

I dunno. I guess I'm just a stickler for rules. There's a a doctrine by William Blackstone that said "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." Law school had pretty much hammered that into me :P

[trillingstar]

I still fail to see how setting up a situation designed to 'scare' Beecher is "no better" than torturing and murdering a bunch of people (or the other horrific acts that the other actual convicted criminals have committed). We'll have to continue to disagree on that!

It's murky territory, fortune-telling. There are a lot of things that Taylor knows about Keller, and there are the things that Taylor thinks he knows, and also a lot of theories that could hold threads of truth or be total horseshit. There's also all of the stuff that we know but Taylor doesn't, and all of the nuances in Keller and Beecher's relationship that can't be captured in pat answers like 'he sucks m[y cock],' and 'prison love.' (I'm reminded of a delightful Oz icon that reads: Looking for love? Try prison. *g*)

It was also stated that Heekins may have made the whole thing up as a way to lighten his third strike conviction sentence. Beecher may have a theory about Taylor's input, but it's unproven (he even says that he can only imply it). Beecher might also be putting things to Keller in a certain way. We can't know for sure. If it had been proven that Taylor had coached Heekins to that extent, there would have been consequences; doubtful that Taylor would still be hunting down criminals at Oz.

I don't think that Taylor is squeaky clean -- I don't think *anybody* is squeaky clean -- but in this situation Beecher is not a defenseless victim. Given their past interactions, I think Taylor crafted his approach so as to make an impression. (Twofer special!) Maybe Taylor was putting Beecher at more risk. Maybe that can be construed as unethical. Maybe it's ideal. But the people who investigate these kinds of crimes... it's drilled into them to look at every angle and then look again, to re-examine everything, and to pursue every scrap of a lead to its furthest conclusion. I would like to think that the police would work that hard to help me, if I had need for it. Laws are circumvented all the time for the purpose of obtaining other goals/bigger fish. Plea bargains immediately spring to mind, granting immunity, protecting sources/witnesses, and even laws for which the prosecutor (or judge(!)) has unwritten policies.

Blackstone is simply inferring that courts should err on the side of innocence, and in the United States, they do. In this case, we already know who in Oz is guilty of the crimes they were jailed for, from the canon flashbacks. Whether or not Keller committed the crimes that Taylor is accusing him of is moot; I'm not presenting an argument for Keller's guilt or innocence here. (POI: I detest the serial killer storyline for him, omfg.) I'm disagreeing that Taylor's actions in this particular scene with Beecher are on par with proven felonious acts from the "criminals [Taylor] was chasing."

Slightly off-topic -- funny that you mentioned the Blackstone ratio! I took a great ethics class where we explored the origins of his words, and then debated the follow-up question, "Better for whom?"

[red-titan.livejournal.com]

Yes, my words regarding Taylor was a tad too strong. Morally, he's higher than them. He didn't commit murder or rape etc. But ethically, I'm still not on board with his methods. He could've just offered Beecher the deal, in a private room with the blinds closed. At that point, Beecher would've done anything just to be with his kids again. That scene struck me as plain overkill. There was no need for him to put Beecher at risk like that, it was plain cruel and unnecessary.

Yup, Beecher did say it was implied. But I do think it was Taylor who gave Heekins those details. It seemed that he was the one who was spearheading Keller's case. And it could go either way. Who actually monitors the FBI, to check if they are following the rules? What if Taylor's superiors at that time happened to just turn a blind eye? Most cops who commit misconduct are just given a slap in the wrist; unless it was truly egregious or there was a public outrcy. My point is, law enforcement agents have the duty to put wrongdoers to justice. But they have to do it without trampling due process or constitutional rights. We've seen how easy it is for this kind of power to be abused, God knows how many innocent people are in prison right now because of police misconduct, or serving longer sentences than what they actually deserve. I know it's naive and idealistic; but these people should be held at a higher standard.

[trillingstar]

I agree that law enforcement should be held at a high standard. It's absolutely not naive or idealistic to want LE to do their jobs correctly and within the bounds of the law. (This goes for lots of professions!)

One thing that inmates lose in prison is their right to privacy (except with their attorney, ofc). Taylor could have interviewed Beecher in the middle of Em City and that would not have been illegal. I don't like what Taylor's trying to do either, intentionally attempting to pit Beecher and Keller against one another... though this isn't a revolutionary technique. Taylor's trying his hardest sell with Beecher, here, and I just can't translate that into professional misconduct (without knowing a lot more than Fontana gave us).

Thanks for a great discussion, btw. I'm glad to have had it! :)

[red-titan.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, Taylor could've talked with Beecher in the middle of Em City without breaking any rules. But that was still a dick move on his part. Taylor knew Beecher had two young kids; a single father at that. He knew their little chat would put Toby at high risk. Couldn't he have handled the situation a little more delicately, considering the circumstances? Just my two cents.

Thanks. You too!